猎云注：比尔盖茨无疑是全球顶尖的企业家，他曾经拥有这个地球上最多的财富。而如今，他不仅是全球第二的有钱人，更是一名拥有足够多社会责任的慈善家。截至2018年，盖茨夫妇累计捐赠达到360亿美元，相当于目前近一个百度的市值。最近，他接受了网易财经《影响力》栏目的独家采访，在这次采访中，我们看到了他对全球经济形势的理解，更看到了他对于社会发展的思考。
文章来源：网易科技，采访出品：网易财经（ID：money-163）《影响力》栏目，主持：网易传媒副总编辑姚长盛，原标题：《专访 | 捐了一个百度的比尔·盖茨：向富人多征税！》。
精彩语录：
1、截至2018年，盖茨夫妇累计捐赠达到360亿美元，相当于目前近一个百度的市值。
2、富裕国家的儿童死亡率不到1%，但在极端贫困的国家，很多地区的儿童死亡率超过15%，这在我们看来是最大的不平等之一。
3、我不需要这么多钱。我很早之前就实现了个人对消费的全部需求，可以用这些多余的财富产生一些影响。我并没有牺牲什么，不会因此吃不上饭，这些钱对我来说都是多余的。总有一天我会把所有的钱捐出去。
4、我们应该珍视所有的生命。一旦你亲自去了某些地方，就很难再忽视那里存在的问题。一旦你去过并且了解了当地的状况，相信你也会认为这是一生当中最值得从事的事业。
近日，网易财经在西雅图独家专访了微软公司创始人比尔·盖茨，由网易传媒副总编辑姚长盛主持。
以下是采访实录：
“这些钱对我都是多余的”
NetEase Finance:You used to be the richest people in the world. Now you’re the second?
网易财经：过去您曾经是世界首富，现在您应该是世界第二吧？
Bill Gates:That’s right. Well as I give money away, I’d be the fourth and the fifth, in someday I’ll give it all away.
比尔·盖茨：我一直在把自己的钱捐出去，估计以后会变成第四或者第五，总有一天我会把所有的钱全捐出去。
NetEase Finance: We want to know, you were once the richest people in the world, now you’re the biggest donor. Why you make this huge shift?
网易财经：过去您曾经是世界首富，现在您是世界首善，是什么让您发生了这种转变？
Bill Gates:When I was working at Microsoft, the goal was to make great software. And the fact that created the value of Microsoft ownership, there is a huge amount of wealth. I didn’t expect that you know. I didn’t need that. That doesn't change how many hamburgers I eat or how many sweaters I wear, so I reached the limit sort of personal consumption a long time ago. So, that extra wealth is available to have an impact. And so, that’s why I studied why children died and thought,” Hey, is this being taken care of?” And in that case, I found that almost no money was going to malaria research. And so I found my cause to turn to my second career, which involves giving this money back in partnership with my wife and Warren Buffet. And so, it’s very fun work. It’s working with scientists, and it’s travelling the world; it’s partnering with a government like China saying “You’re the expert, what are they thinking, what can we do together for seeds and vaccines”. Anyway, it’s very enjoyable, so I’m not making any sacrifice, and I’m not giving up my lunch to do this work, it’s all excess money.
比尔·盖茨：我在微软工作时，目标是开发出全世界最棒的软件，也因此创造出了巨大的财富，这是我并没有预料到的。但其实我不需要这么多钱，我一顿饭不会因此多吃几个汉堡，也不会多穿几件衣服。我很早之前就实现了个人对消费的全部需求，那么可以用这些多余的财富产生一些影响。我开始研究儿童死亡的原因，思考这些问题是否正在得到解决。那时我发现，疟疾研究几乎得不到任何资金支持。我因此发现了人生第二份事业，与我的夫人和沃伦·巴菲特先生共同投身慈善。这份工作很有趣，可以和很多科学家合作，到世界各地考察，还有机会与政府合作，包括中国。我会咨询各个领域专家们的意见，探讨如何合作研发出更好的种子和疫苗。总之，我非常享受这份工作，我并没有牺牲什么，不会因此吃不上饭，这些钱对我来说都是多余的。
世界最严重的不平等
NetEase Finance:In this year your report, Goalkeepers, you said you’ll keep focusing on inequality. So in your mind, what is the inequality most around the world? Women, education, disease control, or income poverty?
网易财经：今年的《目标守卫者》报告重点关注不平等问题。在您看来，当今世界上最严重的不平等体现在哪方面？性别、教育、疾病，还是收入？
Bill Gates:Well, often we talk about income, and that’s pretty important. You know, people living in extreme poverty who don’t have enough resources to buy food always worried about their survival. We really want to get rid of that extreme poverty. But another measure that the foundation has focused a lot on is health. You know, we look at how many children are dying and how we can reduce that number. When we first got started, it was 10 million were dying every year back in the year 2000. And now that’s been cut in half. So it’s about 5 million now. So, that’s really good progress. If you take rich countries, it’s well under 1%, but if you take the poorest countries, there are still places where it’s over 15%. A child in Finland, which is the lowest, had 50 times lower chance of dying than the child in Nigeria, which is a quite poor African country. So that range. You know, our view is that it is one of the greatest injustices, and the world has enough knowledge and resources. We should be able to reduce that dramatically.
比尔·盖茨：我们经常讨论收入不平等的问题，这十分重要，世界上还有很多生活在极端贫困中的人口，他们没有足够的钱买食物，生存可能都成问题。我们非常希望能够消除极端贫困。但是另外一个非常重要的指标，也是盖茨基金会的工作重点，就是健康。我们关注全球每年的儿童死亡数量，并尽最大努力降低这一数字。2000年盖茨基金会刚成立时，全球每年有1000万儿童死亡，现在这一数字已经减半，每年有500万儿童死亡，可以说是非常不错的进展。富裕国家的儿童死亡率不到1%，但在极端贫困的国家，很多地区的儿童死亡率超过15%。芬兰的儿童死亡率是最低的，那里儿童死亡的概率不到贫穷的尼日利亚的1/50。这在我们看来是最大的不平等之一。全球现在已经拥有足够丰富的知识和资源，我们应该完全有能力大幅度降低儿童死亡数量。
提升教育和健康水平最有价值
NetEase Finance:Every year in the Goalkeepers, on the first page, we saw the 17 goals as topics from the global goals. Which one do you think is easy to achieve, and which one do you think is hard to realise and why?
网易财经：每年报告的第一页都列上17个全球目标。您认为这些目标中哪个最容易实现？哪个最难实现？原因是什么？
Bill Gates:Health is very central to all these goals, and that’s where the foundation has chosen to focus. And of course the science of how we make vaccines and how we understand how to stop malaria. Every year the world is getting smarter. So, I put that in a very primary position, because if you’re malnourished and not healthy, then everything else like education or being productive is very very difficult. And if we can really solve health and education, those are the two that to me are enabling. I don’t want to downplay - the environment is very important - all the different goals. But the countries that can take care of themselves are the ones that have really improved health and education. And China is a fantastic example. Starting in 1990, agricultural productivity, investment in education and health. It’s really phenomenal how those things enabled the incredible economic miracle.
比尔·盖茨：健康是实现所有目标的核心，基金会也因此把健康作为工作重点。现在我们研发出了多种疫苗，掌握了治愈疟疾的方法，每年都有更加先进的技术产生，健康仍然是最重要的。如果一个人身体不好或者营养不良，接受教育和参加工作都无从谈起。我认为提升人们的教育和健康水平是最有价值的。我并非低估其他议题的重要性，比如环境也非常重要。但只有一个国家的教育和健康水平得到显著提升后，才能自力更生。中国就是一个很好的例子。自从1990年开始，中国在农业、教育和健康领域取得了了不起的进展，这也是中国创造经济奇迹的基石。
NetEase Finance: So, what's your expectation for the next step for the health, even though it's maybe the equality the most? What's the next step for the foundation you want to do?
网易财经：接下来您和基金金会在健康领域的工作重点有哪些？
Bill Gates:Well, I’d highlight two things. First, we still have 5 million children dying every year now. In 2030 we should cut that in half again, get it down to below 2.5 million. And there are some diseases like Poliomyelitis that paralyses children and kill some. That one in the next 3-4 years should be able to be eradicated. Over a longer-term, you know probably in 20-25 years, we should be able to take malaria and eradicate that. That’s still killing, just malaria, over half a million children every year and hurting tens of millions. You know these very aggressive goals. We’re talking with people in China who make malaria drugs and bednets and the government is there strengthening their partnerships with Africa; how can we work together to eliminate malaria.
比尔·盖茨：我想强调两件事：首先，目前全球每年依然有500万儿童死亡，到2030年我们应该能够将数字再次减半，也就是降低到250万。目前全球仍有儿童因为脊髓灰质炎导致瘫痪甚至死亡，我们希望未来三四年里能将它彻底根除。更长远来看，我们希望在未来20-25年彻底消除疟疾。疟疾每年能导致50万儿童死亡，遭受这种疾病折磨的人口数量有几千万。这些都是非常远大的目标。我们正在和中国开展疟疾药物和（药浸）蚊帐方面的合作。中国政府正在加强与非洲国家的合作，共同努力消除疟疾。
NetEase Finance: How do you think China can make more contribution to that?
网易财经：您认为中国在这过程当中能够作出哪些贡献呢？
Bill Gates:Absolutely, China’s economic growth has been good for the world. You know China has expertise in many many areas, but now it’s thinking OK and asking African countries what their priorities are. The kind of infrastructure China does is very important. Roads are key to economic growth. But these countries are saying “Hey please help us with malaria” Tanzania as an example where it’s three-ways partnerships now: the Gates Foundation, Tanzania, and China. We’re doing this pilot projects, and we’ve been having some good results. Yes, I think health will be an area that China can help the poor countries a lot.
比尔·盖茨：这是毫无疑问的，中国的经济增长为世界做出了巨大的贡献，而且中国在许多领域都有很强的专业能力。目前中国也在寻求帮助非洲国家解决最迫切的问题。中国在非洲建设公路等基础设施十分重要，有助于当地的经济发展。但同时非洲国家也希望中国能帮他们解决疟疾问题。比如在坦桑尼亚，我们现在已经形成了三方合作机制，包括盖茨基金会、中国政府和坦桑尼亚政府共同开展的试点项目，目前已经取得了不错的成果。我认为中国能在健康领域为这些贫困国家提供许多帮助。
全球化对各国都有利
NetEase Finance:Talking about China, we know that the economic growth is so fast in the past decades, and China depends on two factors: one is globalization, and another one is population bonus, but the situation now is complicated. So do you have any suggestion for China and the Chinese young people?
网易财经：过去几十年中，中国经济的快速增长主要得益于两项因素：一是全球化，二是人口红利。但目前的情况正在变得更加复杂，能否给中国政府和中国年轻人一些建议？
Bill Gates:Certainly, the quality of education. You know the universities are getting better and better, in some cases like Tsinghua being one of the best in the world, and the other ones are keeping improving. That trend towards the quality of education will allow China in areas with really high-paying jobs and innovative jobs to contribute to both their successes and the world by and large. The economic growth may not achieve the same percentages in the past, but as long as the job market is working well, and the anti-poverty programs are working well, China should be very proud of what it’s doing, even if the absolute economic growth isn’t going to maintain the really high level that you’ve had in the past.
比尔·盖茨：教育质量非常重要。现在中国高校的教学水平越来越好，比如清华大学就是世界顶尖学府之一，很多大学的教学水平也在不断提高。教学质量的提升将会为中国创造许多高薪且具有创造性的工作岗位，对个人、中国和世界都有利。中国未来的经济增速可能不会一直保持过去的高速度，但只要劳动力市场仍然健康，减贫计划进展顺利，中国应该为目前的进展感到自豪。
NetEase Finance:What’s your comment to the globalization? Maybe we can find some hinder on that?
网易财经：您对当下的全球化局势怎么看？是否遇到了一些阻碍？
Bill Gates:I’m a huge believer in globalization, and the countries mutually benefit from that. Right now, we see some countries pulling back from that, even in some ways the USA is pulling back from that. I think it will be a strong political debate. I don’t think we’ll see a dramatic reversal, but we see there are some voices that speak out against that, and it would be a good, open discussion. The road for innovation, whether it’s health, climate change, or IT, the pace of innovation is going to stay very strong. And that creates huge job opportunities, including China, is doing great work in those areas.
比尔·盖茨：我个人非常支持全球化，这对各国来说都是互惠互利的。现在我们也看到一些国家正在退出全球化，甚至美国在一些方面都是如此。这是一个复杂的政治问题。虽然短时间内很难看到明显的转向，但也有很多反对这种做法的声音，这将引发公开、有益的讨论。至于创新，无论是在医疗健康、气候变化或者信息科技领域，今后创新的步伐都会很快。这会带来很多新的就业岗位，中国在这方面做得非常不错。
中国的经济仍会继续增长
NetEase Finance: That’s good news. In the last Goalkeepers Report, you kept the focus on investing in youth, especially in Africa, because it depends on traditional economics. The healthier you are, the better education for the youth, and you get a better return for that. But do you consider something is changing about the innovation of technology, which has the huge power to change the world? Do you still think the human capital theory is still there?
网易财经：在去年的《目标守卫者》报告中，您强调对年轻人投资的重要性，尤其是非洲国家，因为非洲主要依靠传统经济产业。年轻人越健康、教育水平越高，对社会的回报就会越大。但您是否考虑过科技创新改变世界的潜力？这种情况下，人力资本理论依然有效吗？
Bill Gates:Absolutely.
比尔·盖茨：这是毫无疑问的。
Netease Finance:Why?
网易财经：为什么呢？
Bill Gates:Well, the job market is very strong, and the high salaries are there for well-educated people. If you look at the satisfaction and health of those people, it’s very good, so there is a lot of benefit in individual, and for a country, as it invests in health and education of the people. It’s the main asset. Even if we have lots of robots and software, human capital will be super important. Some of the things that require less education like just driving around, it could be substituted, but if anything, that just creates more value to make sure that those educational investments are well done.
比尔·盖茨：因为就业市场仍然有着巨大的需求，教育程度高的人往往获得高水平的薪资。他们的生活满意度和健康水平都很高，这点很好，所以健康和教育水平的提高对个人和国家都是非常有利的，是很重要的资产。未来即便有大量机器人和软件应用，人力资本仍然十分重要。可能会有一些不需要那么高教育水平的工作会被取代，比如司机。但我们仍然需要投入足够的教育资源，从而产生更多的价值。
NetEase Finance:Do you think we can find more opportunities after the Luis Turning Point? Like China, we can still find more and more population bonus from that? Maybe we can use AI and robots. Do you think it's working?
网易财经：您认为在路易斯拐点之后中国还会有更多的发展机会吗？中国是否继续获得人口红利？还是应该转向人工智能和机器人？
Bill Gates:Well, I think economic growth can continue even when the workforce is not growing because the productivity of these tools will make the productivity per worker much higher. Even in a society like Japan that is aging, they’ll be able to increase their output which is a good thing, because you want to have those resources to take care of the older generation to help them be able to retire and have benefits. So yes, even as the size of the workforce goes down, the economic opportunities are still huge.
比尔·盖茨：我认为，即便中国的劳动力规模不再增长，中国的经济仍然会继续增长，因为这些新的科技工具能够提高人均生产力。即便是日本这样高度老龄化的社会仍然能够通过新兴科技提升人均产出，从而赡养退休的老一代。所以就算劳动力总体规模缩小，中国仍将拥有巨大的经济发展空间。
我们应该珍视所有的生命
NetEase Finance: That’s good. You must know this book(Factfulness).
网易财经：这本书（《事实》）您一定看过。
Bill Gates:Yeah. Fantastic.
比尔·盖茨：是的，非常精彩。
NetEase Finance: Have you tried these certain questions?
网易财经：您做过这些题吗？
Bill Gates:Yes.
比尔·盖茨：做过。
NetEase Finance: What was the score?
网易财经：您的得分如何？
Bill Gates:It's the field I work in. I think I got one wrong.
比尔·盖茨：这恰好是我的工作领域。我好像有一道题做错了。
NetEase Finance: Just one?
网易财经：只做错了一道题吗？
Bill Gates:You know, these questions are about my current full-time job. It’s like asking a cab driver about directions. And I was a friend of Hans. His very first speech at TED I was there. And I realized that he’s telling a story better than I’ve ever heard before, including the story of how you improve health, that actually the population goes down, which is very surprising to many people. And that whole way he presented data, my wife and I got to be very good friends with him. It’s a shame that he died.
比尔·盖茨：因为这些问题都和我目前的工作有关，这就像问出租车司机路线一样。而且我和汉斯（Hans Rosling）是好朋友，之前他在TED的演讲我也参加了，那是我听过的最精彩的演讲之一。他提到在健康条件改善的情况下，人口数量反而会下降，这让很多人感到惊讶。我和我的夫人都感到很幸运能够和他成为朋友，他的过世也让我们很痛心。
NetEase Finance:Yes. That’s so sad. But back to the book, the test. I mean, do you know the truth about his word? Before I came, I read this book; I don’t know the truth. I don’t know the data.
网易财经：的确非常令人遗憾。但回到这些答题上，之前您就知道他说的这些真相吗？我来（西雅图）之前读了这本书，我并不知道他所说的这些真相和数据。
Bill Gates:Most people, even educated people, get less than 50% right. University professors actually do worse than the average person. He is very articulate about this. When we read about disasters, and the news media does a better job of telling us the worst thing anywhere in the world we read about. When I was young, we didn’t know so much about earthquakes or in other countries. And because as human we like to solve problems, we are always looking at, oh, this is a potential problem. Things are going well like reducing childhood death or improving literacy; you don’t dwell on that, you mostly dwell on “Here is where we need to do more work”. So Hans is not saying things have improved so much that we should be lazy. It’s because people care and worry that vaccines have been invented and they are not getting out to more and more children. But to honestly assess, we have to know these numbers that the world has improved and that doing more types of innovation that’s gotten us progress, we should feel good about that.
比尔·盖茨：很多受过高等教育的人也只能答对不到一半的问题。实际上，大学教授的正确率还不如普通人。汉斯对这些问题讲的很明确。现在媒体总是第一时间让我们知道世界上哪里又发生了严重的灾难。我年轻的时候就不太会知道哪个国家有地震发生。人类总是喜欢解决问题，我们总是会关注那些潜在的问题，而不会去想那些已经进展不错的事情，比如降低儿童死亡率、消除文盲等，而是想哪些地方是我们需要额外努力的。汉斯的意思不是说，我们已经取得这么多进展，所以我们可以懈怠了。而现实是，大家更容易担心虽然已经有疫苗被研发出来了，但还是有很多孩子没有办法得到接种。但我们要（对世界）做出一个客观的评估，我们必须看到数据，世界已经取得不错的进展，创新是背后的推动力，我们应该为此感到自豪。
NetEase Finance:I think Hans has given us a relevant and useful method to divide the whole world in a different way, and this chart is very impressive. But my question is, you live on this side. This is your point.
网易财经：汉斯为我们提供了一个划分世界的新颖又有用的方法，这张图也很震撼。您应该属于这个地方？
Bill Gates:Yeah, I’m individually even luckier.
比尔·盖茨：是的，对我个人来说，我更幸运。
NetEase Finance:But not the foundation, and your full-time job is doing this?
网易财经：但基金会关注的是剩下的那些群体。这就是您全职在做的事情？
Bill Gates:Absolutely.
比尔·盖茨：没错。
NetEase Finance:How could you create such a huge space for this. It’s across civilization, religions, and different social system, and different education. How do you do that?
网易财经：这些群体的文化、信仰、社会结构以及教育体系都完全不同。您是如何做到兼顾的？
Bill Gates:The desire to have your children survive exists in every one of these countries. Mothers want their children to survive. And human biology about..., if the vaccine works in one group of humans, will it work in another group, is essentially the same. By creating a measles vaccine or an HIV vaccine, even though you don’t understand the culture and the practices of these people, you can benefit them. Things like roads and electricity and better seeds are helpful. You make a very good point that to actually deliver these products; you need to connect with the people who live in these communities, whether it’s the tribal leaders or religious leaders. For example, educating a mother that you should vaccine your child in these countries, I don’t know how to do that. But I can make money and make sure they’re creating women’s groups where women get together and talk to each other, and that’s a great form for women to explain to each other about vaccination. You’re right, it takes a lot of work, that how to reach all the children in the world who deserve to get these vaccines. You know, these places are very different, and the government in some places are even not existent.
比尔·盖茨：哪个国家的人都希望儿童能生存下来，哪个母亲都希望自己的孩子能健康成长。如果疫苗对一类人群有效，那么对另一群人也应该有效，这些在本质上是相同的。通过研发麻疹或艾滋病疫苗，就算我们不了解当地文化习俗，仍然能够帮助这些人。当然，公路和电力设施的建设，以及培育更好的种子也是非常重要的。有一点你说的很对，想要把这些产品成功交付，需要和社区里的人建立联结，例如通过部落首领或者宗教领袖。举个例子，我不知道如何让这些母亲认识到给孩子接种疫苗的重要性，但我可以投入资金，帮助建立一些妇女组织，这样她们之间能够互相沟通，最后都了解疫苗的作用。你说的没错，这需要大量的工作，让每个有需要的孩子都接种上疫苗。每个地区的情况都完全不同，有些地方甚至连政府都没有。
NetEase Finance: Do you have any pressure to do that?
网易财经：您从事这项事业感觉有压力吗？
Bill Gates:It seems like a clear thing to value all these human lives. Once you visit those places, it’s very hard to ignore the problem. If you’ve never been there, you’re kind of like “Yeah I don’t know, is that really that bad? Is it hard to help?” But once you go there and meet those people, I think for the rest of your life you’ll wonder, isn’t that the most morally important that you can work on?
比尔·盖茨：我们应该珍视所有的生命。一旦你亲自去了某些地方，就很难再忽视那里存在的问题。如果你从没有去过，你可能会觉得“情况真的有那么糟糕吗？提供帮助真的那么困难吗？”一旦你去过并且了解了当地的状况，相信你也会认为这是一生当中最值得从事的事业。
应向富人多征税
NetEase Finance:Now you’re doing your best and with all your effort to narrow the gap between rich and poor, but unfortunately maybe the statistics are showing the gap may be widened.网易财经：现在您全身心投入到消除贫富差距当中，但遗憾的是，按照数据来看，贫富差距似乎扩大了。
Bill Gates:Actually, global income inequality is going down. And the reason for that is that the middle-income countries like India and China have been growing their economy faster than the rich countries. Although you have some inequality within the country, there is enough equality that globally, incomes are less than equal. Within many countries, inequality has gone up. So that’s a political question, do you have a tax system that’s so progressive that it’s taking more from the rich and creating a stronger safety net to help out the poorest. Our goal isn’t everybody to be exactly equal, but we should have a basic safety net that helps everyone.
比尔·盖茨：事实上全球的收入不平等是在下降的，因为印度和中国这些中等收入国家经济增长速度超过了富裕国家。虽然国家内部还存在贫富差距，全球来看收入已经达到了一定程度的平等，然而在很多国家内部，不平等状况有所上升。所以这是一个政策问题：一个国家是否有累进税收制度，向富人多征税，用来构建更强大的保障系统，帮助贫困人群。基金会的目标并不是每个人完全平等，但我们希望每个人都能享受基本的保障。
从事健康工作是我的第二职业
NetEase Finance:What’s the best gift you get from the foundation job? As you’re full-time to do that, you were very successful in software-design and now you’re a very famous philanthropist. So, we want to know.
网易财经：基金会的工作给您带来最大的收获是什么？现在您全职从事慈善工作，您曾在软件设计上取得了非常大的成功，现在又是十分知名的慈善家。Bill
Gates:Well, the progress on global health is super exciting. It's a movement. There's lots of people involved. But to have been part of that, you know, we're really proud of it. And if we can finish polio, which I'm very optimistic, you know, that would be very satisfying. And malaria will take longer, but, you know, that's a milestone I look forward to. So, I love taking on that kind of tough challenges, hiring very smart people with a wide variety of expertise, including science, to do these things. This is fun work and we're seeing progress, you know, and we see that people care about these issues. So, even though we have setbacks, you know, I love it. I'm lucky to have a second career that is very fulfilling.
比尔·盖茨：我们在全球健康领域取得的进展是非常可喜的，很多人参与到这场运动中。作为其中的一份子，我们感到非常自豪。如果我们能够彻底根除脊髓灰质炎，那将是非常令人欣慰的，我对此十分乐观。彻底根除疟疾可能要花更长的时间，不过我相信早晚会做到的。我个人很喜欢有挑战性的工作，招募各行各业包括科技界的人才共同合作。这是一份非常有趣的工作，而且我们也在不断取得进展。现在有越来越多的人重视这些问题，就算有时遭遇一些挫折，我仍然热爱这项事业。我非常幸运能够拥有一份如此有意义的第二职业。
